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18 November 2012 @ 02:59 pm
This is likely to stir up a hornet's nest, but I'm in the mood.

Okay, shipping. What exactly does this entail? Is there a mandatory sexual element? Must there be? And just because a segment of fandom adheres to a particular ship, should The Powers That Be and the actors involved in the fantasy ship be obligated to listen to/tolerate/agree with this shippery?

Little back-story: I listened to an interview with Misha Collins on Winchester Radio
a few days ago and they took caller questions, unscreened. (Probably not the wisest idea.) The last one was courtesy of a weepy young lady who was desperate for Misha to comment on 'Destiel'. He hemmed and hawed and tap-danced around it, she kept pushing, and it all ended up feeling very awkward. About the same time, an essay
popped up on my tumblr dash concerning how good it is that shipping come out of the closet, particularly for the LGBT community (with specific reference to Destiel).

Now, my brother is gay. I read NC-17 slashy fanfic. I'm not a homophobe but as a woman married to a dude, I'm in no position to adjudicate what it's like to be gay or bi. Nor do I feel like we, as a fandom, have the right to bully the show's writers/actors into compliance with ANY of our wishes unless they damned well feel like addressing the topic. And if certain fans are too socially ass-backward to suss out when they're making someone uncomfortable, do we not have the right to comment? Do we not have the right to put a foot down?

There's been a lot of talk about 'shaming' ... ship-shaming, kink-shaming, etc. and how we shouldn't tolerate it. We're all freaks of some stripe; who are we to judge? But there ARE LINES, folks. When we begin to make someone else uncomfortable, we need to back the fuck off and rethink our tactics. Criminy, put yourself in their shoes. Yes, you have the right to say what you want. Guess what? SO DO THEY.

Please don’t shove your ship in anyone’s face and expect them to put their blessing on it, especially not in public. Please don’t assume that shipping is some greater societal statement. Write your own story; let others write theirs.

All comments welcomed, but pleeeease, stay civil, 'kay?
Current Mood: contemplativecontemplative
Current Music: 'What If We Give It Away' - REM
YohkoB: Jensen-Seriousyohkobennington on November 18th, 2012 08:13 pm (UTC)
It's simple: shipping should stay in FANDOM.
It's not or will never be CANON. We do not need it to be in the show just because "it's good for the LBGT". NO sorry, SPN was never about this, why should it be now? And by that I mean a couple in love relationship (any kind) to be the main thing in it. The show has already supported the LBGT. Did we forgot about Charlie? And how well they did this by for the first time NOT focusing in the character's sexual preference as the main point? That's what I want from a show, to make the gay and lesbians part of the society, as if it was the most normal thing ever. Which it is, people are just stupid and close minded but whatever.

And like you say, there is a line. These type of people like that girl make it seem like all they want from SPN is a Novela. Go fucking watch channel 4 pls. This is SPN; it's pain, and blood, and gore, and urban legends, and about two brothers journey and the people the meet.

Srsly every time something like that interview happens, I want to find the person and bury them six feet under. This is beyond ridiculous now. And they make the actors uncomfortable to answer about this crap because again: SPN is not about that!

i'm on a website where people fuck fruit: domestic!Dean1geckoholic on November 18th, 2012 08:19 pm (UTC)

It's all fun and games until we involve people outside of fandom. That's not fun and not cute and not something I even WANT the actors etc. to know much about, to be honest.
(no subject) - yohkobennington on November 18th, 2012 08:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on November 18th, 2012 08:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on November 18th, 2012 08:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tifaching on November 18th, 2012 09:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
galathea_snbgalathea_snb on November 18th, 2012 08:26 pm (UTC)
I don't think your comment has anything to do with being a homophobe, it's simple common sense and decency to respect another person's feelings. If you have to fear being considered a homophobe just because you point out rudeness, then there is something wrong in this world.

Edited at 2012-11-18 08:28 pm (UTC)
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 18th, 2012 08:35 pm (UTC)
TRUTH. It is kinda sad and I did feel I had to point it out. Maybe that says something more about ME, huh? Interesting...
(no subject) - ratherastory on November 18th, 2012 08:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
ratherastory: [Futurama] Dramaratherastory on November 18th, 2012 08:30 pm (UTC)
I don't agree that shipping is somehow good for the LGBT community. I can't speak for all of us, but I'm pretty sure that having Dean and Cas (as the example in question) be openly in love/sleeping together on the show won't actually make any discernible difference in my life. It won't make my mother less homophobic, it won't suddenly alter my status, and it won't magically make anyone suddenly believe that gay marriage should be allowed everywhere.

I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of shippers appear to be heterosexual women writing slash for their own gratification. There is NOTHING wrong with that, but don't turn around and tell me that you're somehow doing the queer community a favour by writing porn for yourself. Oy.

I love shipping. I'm a multishipper myself (though I write and read primarily gen fic) and I love that people are invested in that aspect of a show and fandom. It's a perfectly valid way to watch a show, and to experience fandom, and it drives me nuts when outsiders look down on people for it. "Oh, you're a slasher. That's so weird/creepy/wrong." No, no it's not. It's just a different way of being a fan of a show, the same way that vidding is, or podficcing or cosplaying. Shippers participate in fandom out of love, and that should be recognized and validated for the positive thing that it is.

What I don't think is appropriate is for fans and shippers to consistently try to "force" their views on the actors/writers/producers of a show. Quite frankly, 99% of the time the subtext is just that—subtext—and there is no real relationship there. Do I ship Dean/Cas? You bet! Do I think it will or should become canon? No. Shipping needs to stay in fandom. I'm not talking about keeping it swept under the rug, but I am talking about maintaining a level of decorum when talking to the people professionally involved in the show. If it makes them uncomfortable, then back the hell off. You will accomplish nothing by hounding people to acknowledge your OTP in an interview or during a Q&A.

Appreciate your pairing and your subtext, write all the fic, make all the vids, draw all the art, leave gushing comments for the writers and artists and podficcers who make you happy, and learn how to exercise moderation and restraint.
ratherastoryratherastory on November 18th, 2012 08:34 pm (UTC)
Uh, also, for the record, I don't think there has to be a sexual element to shipping, although most people take it that there will be.

Ship = short for "relationship," and it's usually understood that it's going to be a romantic/sexual one. I don't know when the word was first coined, but I first heard it applied to Mulder/Scully in the X-Files in the nineties, and I think that people were more invested in the romance than the sex, for the most part. Don't quote me on that, because I wasn't in fandom at the time and I might be completely wrong—it's just the impression I got.

I do know that I ship Sam 'n' Dean just as much as I ship Sam/Dean, if not a whole lot more. :)
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 18th, 2012 08:41 pm (UTC)

I'm so glad you piped up on this because you're one of my very favorite writers whom Does It All, and you manage to make it work and I totally buy it and you've got your head on straight. You've been in fandoms longer than I have, so sometimes my jargon might be misinformed.

Thanks bunches for posting!

(edited to clean up my raging typos. Egads.)

Edited at 2012-11-18 08:44 pm (UTC)
monicawoe: Between-Sammonicawoe on November 18th, 2012 09:01 pm (UTC)
Yes, you have the right to say what you want. Guess what? SO DO THEY.

Hear, hear!

Please don’t assume that shipping is some greater societal statement. Write your own story; let others write theirs.

Wonderfully said.

ficwriter1966ficwriter1966 on November 18th, 2012 09:13 pm (UTC)
While I think Misha can handle pretty much anything the fandom throws at him (and might well go home and have a good laugh about most of it), I agree with you that people ought to put their Big Girl Hats on and use a little common sense when dealing with the actors, writers and production crew. (I haven't listened to the podcast, but I imagine Misha tried not to hurt or insult the caller -- I've seen him merrily mock the Destiel situation, or play along with it to the nth degree, in con vids, and perhaps he realized that this person was not receptive to being teased, and tried his best to be diplomatic?)

I think some of this situation arises out of the "anything goes" atmosphere on the Internet. Since people have these rolicking discussions about the ship of their choice, and gather a ton of reinforcement for their feelings from others in their group, it's just one more small step to blurt something out in front of the actors and expect them to agree and sympathize. They seem to honestly BELIEVE in what they think they're seeing, no matter how many other people tell them, "Ummm...no."

The worst of it seems to be the rampant crazy that's the J2 shippers. I've read some truly astonishing, ugly nonsense regarding Jensen and Jared's supposed relationship -- and some of these "fans" feel free to bombard Jared with it via Twitter. Behavior like that just turns my stomach. J&J, and their wives and families, must be truly weary of seeing/hearing it.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 18th, 2012 11:22 pm (UTC)
Yeah, Misha was trying very hard not to hurt the girl's feelings; she was quivery with nerves. And I agree with you about the Wild West of the internet. It's really important IMHO to bring relationships into the Real World ™ and see beyond what you specifically cull over the internet.
mangacat201: teacherrantmangacat201 on November 18th, 2012 09:14 pm (UTC)
Well... first, no I don't think shipping necessarily has to have a sexual component. For me a ship is two characters that might or might not be together in canon, might or might not have a lot of subtext on the show that for some reason I can see being in a relationship or some sort (again, sexual, romantic, platonic, what have you) though the first association with 'ship' will primarily be romantic.
Do I think that the emergence of fandom phenomena and lingo (including such things as ships) in public discourse is a good thing? Hell to the yes, fandom is a seriously underrated and underappreciated literary, artistic and scholastic genre. Do I think it's necessarily good for the LGBT-community? I don't really know, but I'm inclined to agree with ratherastory on that one.
Apart from all that, the issue with confronting the actors and creators with discussing a specific ship... weeeeeell. Apart from the fact that Wincest is particularly delicate because of the actually illegal nature of such a relationship, I think putting stuff like 'So what do you think about Destiel, Misha' up there is just plain nonesense, because Misha - contrary to popular opinion stemming from his attempts at world domination - does not have the power to influence the creative direction of the show like that. So whatever he says will be inconsequential towards the actually plot, very awkward PR at best and making parts of fandom feel excluded at worst. And I feel like people entering that kind of discourse with the actors should keep those restrictions in mind, just plainly as an act of fannish and professional courtesy.
As for forcing the ideas on the producers... hell to the no. I know that the New Age of Interaction that was brought on by twitter, facebook, conventions etc. that suddenly opened dialogue between creators and audience is absolutely fantastic as a new mode of artistry, but it has also fostered an unhealthy attitude of entitlement in some (increasingly younger) parts of fandom. I think that is just something that is in flux, developments that are not yet stabilized in terms of what new fandom etiquette is supposed to be. People just need to realize that a new access to 'behind the scenes' does not mean they can suddenly run the show with all their massive input. After all, the audience is kind of (sadly) the smallest consideration in the production of TV these days.
auroramama on November 18th, 2012 10:37 pm (UTC)
rudeness and questionable attitudes
People need to learn what's polite and what isn't from other people. A lot of people won't get the point until they commit some gaffe, great or small, and realize they've made the day a little worse for someone who's given them nothing but delight. But much can be learned at each stage from more experienced fans.

That's why I try to keep behavior issues separate from critiques of what some fans think and feel. I don't think it's necessary to stamp out attitudes, however questionable they may be, in order to teach people how to act around actors and other showfolk. If they want to believe that their ship is canon, whatever that means, who cares? Look down on them all you want, but what they really need to know is that pushing an uncomfortable actor to confirm their view of the show is rude and unkind. That's true whether they're asking about the wankiest fanon ever or some uncontroversial commonplace about motel decor.
Re: rudeness and questionable attitudes - quickreaver on November 18th, 2012 10:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: rudeness and questionable attitudes - auroramama on November 19th, 2012 01:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: rudeness and questionable attitudes - quickreaver on November 19th, 2012 01:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
Donna: dean and gunwithdiamonds on November 18th, 2012 09:42 pm (UTC)
Yes, the term did originate in X-Files. People who wanted Mulder and Scully to be in a relationship were called relationshippers, which evolved into shippers. People who didn't were called "no-romos," short for no romance. People who didn't care either way were called "fencers," short for fence-sitters.

And then for a while it seemed like shippers were all about het and slashers were all about, well, slash, but now I guess ships are ships.

And even though I've been in fandom since the days when we hid EVERYTHING, I'm not opposed to the partial breakdown of the fourth wall. I don't mind the "outing" of fandom, as it were.

BUT. Discussion of ships and such with the actors, writers and showrunners is just stupid and rude. If they initiate it, fine. But when it makes people uncomfortable, it's not fine. I can't imagine any universe in which Jeremy Carver is going to say, sure, why not, let's get Dean and Cas together for real, OMG WHAT'S TAKEN US SO LONG just because fans bring it up at the Paley festival.

Now, when a show like NCIS asks viewers what ship they like best, Tony/Gibbs is just as valid an answer as Tony/Ziva, but that's a different circumstance.

I do sometimes feel uncomfortable at the notion that writing slash somehow benefits the LGBT community, or makes allies out of straight women writing what gets them off. I've been a slasher forever, but I'm not denying the appropriation of something personal and sometimes painful for my own entertainment.

So for over-enthusiastic fans who giggle and swoon at the idea of cute guys together to publicly push TPTB into somehow incorporating their fantasy into an established, professional show is rude and annoying at best.

It would be lovely to see more LGBT people and relationships on TV. It's not going to happen on SPN - or on H5O for that matter. It's one thing for actual LBGT people and their RL allies to lobby for that. It's another for fandom slashers to do it.

The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 18th, 2012 11:27 pm (UTC)
Thank you for explaining the origin of the shipping phenomena! Eeeeenteresting. (And I agree with you about Carver and SPN in general; the story is about two brothers. Not two brothers and their romances. This isn't Supernatural 90210.)
borgmama1of5: Mollyborgmama1of5 on November 18th, 2012 10:14 pm (UTC)
"but it has also fostered an unhealthy attitude of entitlement in some...parts of fandom"

I think that comment can be used across the board when discussing fandom, not just shipping--the amount of vitriol I see when the writers take the story in a different direction than a fan wants...It is frustrating that fans don't grasp that the show cannot be written to their specifications because every fan wants something different! I'm not talking about mild kvetching about plot holes, or expressing dismay that the story is going differently than anticipated (I'm guilty), but the fans who seem to feel entitled to have the show written just for them.

The existence of fanfic, etc. allows us to divert the show into our own personal paths, but the show as it is given to us is not for us to control.

And I just don't get hateful comments! If you don't like it anymore, don't watch!
auroramama on November 18th, 2012 10:49 pm (UTC)
Well, if network executives can ruin a show they know nothing about, and they can and do, I don't feel I have to blush for presumptuous fans. At least they care for the shows they criticize. Even angry, hateful comments usually come from disappointed love.
Re: heartbreak - quickreaver on November 18th, 2012 11:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - monicawoe on November 19th, 2012 01:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on November 19th, 2012 01:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ratherastory on November 19th, 2012 07:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amberdreams on November 20th, 2012 11:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cherry916 on November 19th, 2012 08:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on November 19th, 2012 06:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ratherastory on November 19th, 2012 07:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
katsheswimskatsheswims on November 18th, 2012 10:15 pm (UTC)
I don't think shipping has to have a sexual element. It seems like a romantic element should be part of it, but I don't really see why it can't also apply to just an epic friendship?

As for involving the actual people who play the characters people ship together...that is very very iffy. I certainly wouldn't say anything.

On the one hand it seems alright for someone to ask a question to (let's say) Jensen about how Dean (or he) feels about Lisa, Jo, Bela etc relationship-wise (meaning romantic or friendship or general relations--however he takes it), and the same for how he feels about Cas, Benny, Garth etc, but when the questioner tries to push a sexual element into the question that makes things uncomfortable.

I think fans shouldn't ask something that they feel might make anyone feel uncomfortable. And fans shouldn't expect validation of their (non-canon) ships from the actors etc! I don't know if I'm explaining well...

But really I agree with everything you said in your post.

Edited at 2012-11-18 10:24 pm (UTC)
Amberamberdreams on November 20th, 2012 11:44 am (UTC)
I agree. It's a totally different matter to ask and actor about how they see his or her relationships with fellow characters - and to a certain extent, how they see their relationships with the other actors off the set. But then the trick is to listen to what they are willing to share in answering those questions, and to respect their answers, not to then project your own fantasies onto thei real life experiences!
Kadysn: Illegal to stab stupid peoplebt_kady on November 19th, 2012 12:19 am (UTC)
THANK YOU! One thing that has always pissed me off when watching con vids are the idiots who ask the guests any sort of shipping question. Especially Jared and Jensen. The whole subject matter bothers them, so why do people persist at it? I agree that shipping needs to stay in the fandom, and far away from canon, unless the writers put it there.

Saying that, a lot of the die-hards are firmly convinced that the writers HAVE put it there, and I completely disagree. There is NOTHING in canon that says the brothers are committing incest, or that there is any kind of sexual relationship between, say, Dean and Cas. It's just not there. It's all in the fans' minds, and that's where it needs to stay.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 19th, 2012 01:07 am (UTC)
Oh, I think there are a few nods to sexual innuendo, but no more than my male friends throw at each other or heck, I throw at my female friends. But yeah, it's not canon and trying to get the actors to validate an imaginary ship (or slip up and confess to a real-life liaison) is, in my book, awkward and disrespectful, respectively.

Why some fans keep asking? Well, I think auroramama answered that best: it's behavior issues. They aren't savvy enough to understand it makes the person they're asking uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with the ship, per se. So I think the best thing we can do is discourage the behavior, but kindly.
(no subject) - bt_kady on November 19th, 2012 01:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cherry916 on November 19th, 2012 08:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
downjune: wind farmdownjune on November 19th, 2012 01:13 am (UTC)
I've been active in various fandom since 2007 and a fic reader since 2000, and I'm still not sure what it means to 'ship' a pairing. Basically for me, it means to love a set of characters to tiny bits and write them into stories so that they may do my bidding. :) If sex happens, all the better, but it's not required.

For me this is an intensely personal pastime that I only like to share with people that I KNOW are like-minded--namely other fangirls/fanboys. I do not like to share this with Real People in My Real Life.

And... it's not that I think the line between fandom and real world should never be crossed, but I think there's a danger of confusing real people with characters. I don't mean that fangirls are delusional, but that the real people involved with Supernatural are seen as... public property, in a way. Like, they are there for us because they make something that we love so they have to listen to what we want and we can be rude to them and make them uncomfortable and it's okay because we're Fans, and why won't they just admit that Dean and Cas are fucking already?@?@!

Bit of a tangent--I think this is kind of the rationale behind thinking it's okay to publicly harass Kristen Stewart for her personal life choices. There's a way in which celebrities are considered "public". I don't know what better word to use; there must be one. But the people who consume their films/tv shows feel entitled to treat the actual people involved as they would a character. Which is kind of fucked up. Unlike with a fictional character, there are real consequences to saying certain things to them!

Also, the idea that slash fandom is somehow helping the lgbt community makes me very prickly. Like, it's great that the internet provides an outlet for this kind of creativity, and it can be freeing and therapeutic and that's GREAT. I know lots of lgbt folks who love slash for this very reason! Because, hey, queering text rocks! But it can also be creepy and fetishistic when straight girls squawk about pairing off canonically straight characters that are never going to be queer in the name of Gay Rights. Yeah, the writers throw you a bone sometimes with innuendo, and that has a name--it's called queer baiting and it's not progressive at all. It's making fun of the idea of the characters actually BEING gay. Because, haha, isn't that FUNNY.

*deep breath*

In sum, far be it from me to tell anyone how to be a fan, but some folks just need to reel it in a little. I'm not sure if it's a 'shipping' thing so much as it is a boundaries thing.

*loves you for these posts*
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 19th, 2012 02:41 am (UTC)
*loves you back!*

Ah, queer-baiting. I kinda wonder about this. Most of my friends are straight guys, albeit geeks and not the least bit macho. They flirt with each other and make butt-sex jokes incessantly. Is this taboo? Can you only make these sorts of cracks (no pun intended!) if you're gay? My (gay) brother makes straight jokes all the time and dammit, they're funny. Can't it just be ... comedy? Sometimes? Or are we too emotionally sunburnt these days?

No question a broader demographic of characters is needed on television PERIOD. Might take the edge off the issue.

But yeah, it's a boundaries issue. I HATE seeing paparazzi photos of celebrities out with their kids or on vacation, just trying to have a normal day. Drives me batty. We do NOT have a right to every stinkin' aspect of their private lives. Just as we don't have the right to ask them any embarrassing question that pops out of our mouths, regardless of topic. Well, okay, we have the right to ask, but they have just as much right to treat us like we're smoking crack. Fair is fair.

No one wants to curtail fandom's fun. Maybe we just need to police ourselves a little better in public. We're humans; they're humans.

(no subject) - downjune on November 19th, 2012 07:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on November 19th, 2012 08:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amberdreams on November 20th, 2012 11:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on November 20th, 2012 02:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Charity: [Sam] sam needs bigger cupscherry916 on November 19th, 2012 08:16 am (UTC)
It's not really an issue of homophobia (which is another topic that annoys me because that word is taken so lightly in fandom and used without reverence to what they're actually saying to people just urhg we have ENOUGH homophobia in the world as it is without fangirls trying to shove it where it doesn't belong or dear god try and claim the writers/actors are actually homophobic)

But like someone else said it's common sense and human decency. While, Misha does like to troll with fandom and talk about both Destiel and Sassy on occasions he likes doing so on his time. I think it's really rude to shove it in his face like that. I know a lot of shippers don't intend it to come across this way but it's kind of saying 'so I don't care about your acting or the storyline or anything else but I DEMAND you talk about this fanon ship to better suit my shippers heart' I know they don't mean it to come across that way but it does.

I'm in agreement with the majority. Shipping should stay in Fandom. If only because A) while Misha doesn't mind joking (I mean hell he admitted to going on tumblr. So it's not like Misha is THAT out of loop with fandom) Jensen and Jared though honestly do not care. They are not as IN the know as Misha is and don't fully understand shipping to begin with past their characters banging each other senseless. They don't see what shippers pick up nor can we try and force them to understand because at the end of the day shipping isn't really what the show is about.

I mean why would you need outside reassurance? I don't want to insult or be mean to ANYONE but that's coming off as a bit desperate. I assure you there are enough scenes that could be taken as homoerotic subtext and PLENTY of shippers to fully exploit that subtext for you to be satisfied with keeping things in fandom.

Honestly, we've been through this so many times before and gee IT NEVER HAS ENDED WELL. Misha doesn't like to have Destiel shoved upon him, more so liking to 'troll' on his own time and Jensen and Jared don't necessarily like talking about ships at all. It's just awkward all around, not only for J2 and Misha sometimes but for other fans as well because it makes us all seem like we're like that which we are not.

Sigh, sigh, sigh sorry for the long comment this is just one subject that irks me to no end. But please lets keep fandom in fandom.
Chill McGundear_tiger on November 19th, 2012 08:48 pm (UTC)
I wanted to drop in my two cents to this really interesting discussion! Though I might have something of substance to say only on one subject. We actually just had this discussion at work with some friends, not about fandom, but about starting these incredibly uncomfortable conversations with people who are on the clock, out of some miserable need for validation. This DESTIEL (or whatever other ship) shoved into actors' faces is basically us assuming this position of a Fan/Customer/Patient and cornering people who are bound by some professional code of conduct. They have to be nice to us! Maybe Misha Collins won't get fired for not being nice to a fan, maybe he won't get his pay cut, maybe he won't be kicked off the show, but hell, whatever the consequences may or may not be for him, he's working, for fuck's sake. There's professional behavior that comes with that. And I suspect that weepy maidens like this Destiel caller realize that this is one situation in which they can't get shot down, no one can laugh at them or discredit their idea. So yay, let's corner them and demand affirmation!
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 20th, 2012 02:07 pm (UTC)
Yup. It's like the fan/customer/patient is trying to corner the professional, through embarrassment, into compliance! I HOPE HOPE HOPE we can continue to discourage this and gently teach the overzealous person (fan, whatever) to maintain respectful boundaries.

If we want to see more LGBT characters on the show (or heck, a wider representation of the world's demographics, period), we should compliment the Powers That Be on great characters like Charlie, instead of cajoling the writers to make changes to canon characters, based on our fandom proclivities. Our fantasies are our fantasies, and Carver can't make everyone happy, all the time.
(no subject) - dear_tiger on November 20th, 2012 02:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Amberamberdreams on November 20th, 2012 11:22 am (UTC)
The trouble is - these guys are heterosexual and I very much doubt they have felt any sexual attraction to another guy in their lives. I'm heterosexual and have never wanted to have sex with another woman. I've wondered what it might be like, I have an appreciation of the beauty of other women's forms but I don't want to have sex with one. And I should think if someone wanted (which they wouldn't because I'm not famous or attractive!) to write loads of sexy-times fic about me having sex with other women, I don't think I'd get much out of reading it. (My hubby might, but that's a different kettle of fish LOL!!)

And even if they had wanted to dabble, so to speak, that is nobody's business but their own. If they are curious and bring it up, by all means explain it, but don't expect them to suddenly embrace the whole slash culture. This weekend at A9 there were a few discussions about fanfic and Richard was quite happy to explain what slash was to (I think) Rob. He obviously finds the phenomenon amusing but even he wouldn't want to get into some deep discussion about who should fuck whom! There are lines, but some people really don't seem to get it.

For instance, some young girl got up on stage and stripped off her t shirt because she wanted Seb to wear her shirt and really wanted him to give her his shirt in return - he didn't. But one of the con organisers had to go up on stage and cover her up with his jacket because she was just standing there in her bright turquoise bra. Seb had made sure she had underwear on before allowing her up there but it was still embarrassing. He might seem to have no shame but I don't think he's actually that comfortable with that kind of situation, particularly as he has got a girl friend now.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on November 20th, 2012 02:20 pm (UTC)
Oy vey. She took off her shirt? Hang on there, crazy, pump the brakes!

I hope she is duly embarrassed right now, and has learned her lesson. LINES, people, LINES. Boundaries. You know, those funny things we draw in the sand. Is it getting more and more extreme lately? It kinda sounds like it has ...

At Chicon, Speight and Cohen kept getting asked these lengthy, involved questions about canon their characters weren't even involved in. Speight did two panels that weekend; on the second one, he requested NO MORE OF THOSE QUESTIONS. And when someone asked one, he didn't pussyfoot around it; he waved them on.

Maybe that's what Show needs to do: confront the issue once and for all. NO, there is no Destiel in this current storyline. NO, Sam and Dean do not fuck each other. I can see why they hesitate, though. They don't want to dampen anything the fans might be doing to further enjoy the show, and this includes writing slashy fanfic. They'd just rather it not be paraded in front of their faces. Hello, YOUR kink might not be THEIR kink.
(no subject) - amberdreams on November 20th, 2012 03:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)