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11 December 2013 @ 01:44 pm
VERY interesting podcast!  
Hellatus navel gazing, as it pertains to Show writing and fandom, under cut...



The Nerdist Writers Panel

I love this podcast BUNCHES, and this particular episode rings especially true for us, in the Supernatural fandom. The podcast is hosted by Ben Blacker, a television and comic writer who also spearheads the Thrilling Adventure Hour ("in the style of old-time radio") and is a Supernatural writing alumnus.

A handful of television writers (for Bones, Secret Circle, The Finder, Intelligence) discuss, in part, social media and the impact fandom has on their job. The short of it? Zippo, really, except as it pertains to advertising.

Any member of a fandom who thinks they can badger a TV writer/show runner/director/producer (over Twitter, ahem) into bending a storyline in any particular direction is simply grinding smoke. Period. And the writers "fucking hate it." What's more, is they "fucking hate" when someone tweets "Fandom wants 'x'." Because it's total bullshit--any one person speaking for an entire fandom is bullshit. The fandom numbers, as far as these particular writers report, are about 1 in 50. This means that for every ONE passionate fangirl/person, there are FIFTY average, habitual viewers. We're just reeeeeally loud. ;)

Now, this situation may change as social media becomes more powerful, but as it stands, we have very little impact on a show except to support it by watching, and voting in events to bring our show more notice. We can only influence it by keeping it on the air. Additionally, there is never a consensus in fandom. It's narcissistic to believe "our faction is mighty and deserves to be heard!" Only the network holds that esteemed position.

All this being said, it never hurts to ask for better representation of any given demographic, be it LGBTA (basically, any non-hetero) lifestyle, POCs, genders, you name it. But to require a particular turn of events to come to fruition is just unrealistic, IMHO.

Discuss! Or not. But please keep it civil, okay gang? *fistbump*
 
 
 
cassiopeia7: Charlie: nerd glassescassiopeia7 on December 11th, 2013 07:04 pm (UTC)
Just started listening, and oooooh! I LOVE THIS. Thank you!

I think the fandom entitlement that's erupted on Twitter has surprised EVERYONE.

And the writers "fucking hate it."

Of course. A bunch of "fans" telling THEM how to do their jobs?

What's more, is they "fucking hate" when someone tweets "Fandom wants 'x'." Because it's total bullshit--any one person speaking for an entire fandom is bullshit.

. . . or any ten people, or any one hundred people. "Fandom" is 90º different from RL, and it's sad that some folks just don't get that. A lot of people are going to be up in arms about certain of the things said in this podcast, but C., you already know how I feel about certain things that go on in SPN fandom. And about that, I'll say no more. ;)

*returns to listening*
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 12th, 2013 04:59 am (UTC)
Honestly, I kinda think it's a function of how entrenched the younger generation is with the internet and social media. Don't get me wrong, I reeeealy appreciate the internet; it's given me a job that allows me to be a stay-at-home mom and do what I love, but it is no replacement for real world interactions. Not even close. I made more connections and learned more from one weekend at a scifi/fantasy art convention this past fall than I have over five years of manipulating the internet.

There is just too many opportunities for miscommunication on-line. It blows up way too fast and it's so easy to forget the human element.

Sigh.
Lady Moon-Loona-cyjennytork on December 11th, 2013 07:21 pm (UTC)
THANK YOU!!! I have been saying this for YEARS!

Personally, I think that's the fanfiction writer's job-- to take everything we WANT to see and make it happen.

The actual SHOW writers? don't owe us a THING.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 11th, 2013 08:11 pm (UTC)
Well, I do think the writers owe us a good story. ;) Solid writing, continuity, character growth, yadda. And I'm not altogether certain we've gotten much of that these past couple of seasons! They owe us professionalism and a well-crafted product.

They don't owe us validation of our life choices, though. Or authentication of our 'ship', for whatever reason.

I know the attitudes expressed in this podcast won't sit well with some because we want to think that as a mass of a certain gravity, we can exert some influence, but the fact of the matter is, we cannot. It's not the right forum to do so. If we want change in representation of a given demographic in media, we need to BE that change. We need to write it ourselves. :D
Amberamberdreams on December 11th, 2013 07:21 pm (UTC)
WORD! :D

And edited to say - but that loud faction tends to be delusional so will never believe this.

Edited at 2013-12-11 07:22 pm (UTC)
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 11th, 2013 08:14 pm (UTC)
I'm not 100% certain it's all delusion, but certainly misunderstanding! And to some degree, internet hyperbole. Or just the lure of a challenge. ;)
hsifeng: Buckets of Crazyhsifeng on December 11th, 2013 07:42 pm (UTC)
Bless you. And bless them.
blythechild: Dainty Geniusblythechild on December 11th, 2013 07:56 pm (UTC)
You're probably preaching to the converted here. I think its *nice* if a show does a hat tip to fandom, but they are under no obligation to do so and it's just crazed entitled neckbeards (can you be a 'neckbeard' if you are a fangirl? hmmmmm....) who believe otherwise. VIEWERSHIP is the only say that fans have - we hold power only in so much as we are receptacles for advertising messages. It was ever thus.

I also wholeheartedly agree with the commenter above that it is the fanfiction writer's job to make things happen in fandom that a show cannot. That's why I fic and draw - don't take that from me!
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 11th, 2013 08:28 pm (UTC)
Neckbeards! I have never heard that one before!

They're not "crazed" or "crazy" for the most part (though I'm sure there are a few clinically valid exceptions) but I feel they want to insist that their cause is justified by social and political correctness. Fairness for all. When this isn't necessarily the case.

And then there are some who just want to see their favorite two characters snog. Fair enough! But in no way is this permission to flood the show staff with insults (or be insulted themselves, for that matter.) It's cool to stay upbeat -- because they are no less human than we are -- but powerfully uncool to be hurtful to each other.

And in conclusion ... WRITE AND DRAW ALL THE THINGS! We must give ourselves what we want, not expect someone else to do it for us.
(no subject) - blythechild on December 11th, 2013 08:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
i'm on a website where people fuck fruit: Dean hounds on his trailgeckoholic on December 11th, 2013 08:15 pm (UTC)
I'd listen to that, but I have this irrational hate boner for Hart Hanson and don't wanna listen to him babble. XD Other than that, yeah. All the bullying and shaming going on in fandom is probably even worse, if you look at it that way, seeing as it's not only douchey but also entirely for naught. Because this way or that, NO ONE'S GONNA CARE.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 11th, 2013 08:40 pm (UTC)
I'm not personally familiar with Hart Hanson (and on the podcast, I can't really tell one voice from the next) but MAN, have we been awful to each other in fandom lately! It's a bloody crime! I know my personal malcontent (because I don't ardently ship Dean/Cas) has been my fear that the shitty behavior and accusations of queer baiting will lead to a serious downturn in viewership and kill the show ... until I started doing a little research and discovered that our fandom numbers are relatively small (as I mentioned above, 1 in 50.) And then you look at this season's ratings and the numbers are increased from last year.

I'm still really really sadfaced about the fandom in-fighting, and I still wish the show's attention to detail WAS THERE, but it was kinda heartening to hear that the misadventures we see on Twitter don't really amount to a hill of beans.

(EDIT: the aforementioned "shitty behavior" is not just from the D/C camp, btw. It's systemic!)

Edited at 2013-12-11 08:42 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - geckoholic on December 11th, 2013 09:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 11th, 2013 09:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - geckoholic on December 11th, 2013 09:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 11th, 2013 10:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - geckoholic on December 22nd, 2013 06:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 22nd, 2013 09:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karadin on December 12th, 2013 02:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - geckoholic on December 22nd, 2013 06:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?: Jensen hands-uptebtosca on December 11th, 2013 10:09 pm (UTC)
I have been saying fandom isn't really important to anyone but fandom itself for years, but no one listens to this side :P
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 11th, 2013 10:42 pm (UTC)
That's because we want to believe SO HARD that we're special snowflakes and we matter! The fact we can 'touch' the writers and Show folk on tumblr/twitter/whathaveyou doesn't help. It gives the illusion of a connection. Connections are made through relationships being formed, not the sporadic social media exchange.

It's not that Show doesn't appreciate the fans, or that we can't connect through social media, but it takes a sustained and individual commitment.

Frankly, I don't know how any TV show get produced with any level of quality! Seems like so many of them are dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I think the networks like HBO, Showtime and such entering the serial ring has broadened what show creators can do substantially. You think?
harriganharrigan on December 11th, 2013 11:03 pm (UTC)
I am so happy to read this. I want the writers to tell the stories that they want to tell. And so far as that matches what I'm interested in, I'm along for the ride. (And in the case of SPN, I'm a little more invested than that!) When a show no longer meets my expectations or desires, I move on, but I don't rant that they are doing it wrong.

Which is not to suggest that people shouldn't express their hopes or disappointment or frustration on their personal blogs. But making demands to the Powers That Be...? I'm actually relieved to hear writers say that they don't pander to the loudest voices.

I really liked your whole post. It never hurts to ask for better representation of any given demographic, be it LGBTA (basically, any non-hetero) lifestyle, POCs, genders, you name it. But to require a particular turn of events to come to fruition is just unrealistic, IMHO. Yes!
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 11th, 2013 11:45 pm (UTC)
As much as we'd like the writers to tell the story they want to tell, even they have to kowtow to the network. Imagine if they had to do what fandom wanted too? It'd be one big mess, trying to placate everyone.

They have to make their bosses happy (which means making sure the commercials are being watched and the ratings keep steady, if not improve.)

That's not to say the craft of writing the episodes couldn't use a little polish, but that doesn't really have much to do with the Big Picture, when it's all said and done. Personally, I'd LOVE to see more continuity and experimenting (and originality), but I do like Show the way it is. It is my sole fandom for a reason!
mangacat201mangacat201 on December 11th, 2013 11:50 pm (UTC)
I'm way too tired to listen to the podcast right now, but I will when I'm not on my last leg. However, I got some stuff i need to let out.
I do think that claiming fandom (and more exactly social media interaction with fandom and the production body of a show) has absolutely zero impact on their work is the writers either being horribly simplifying or clinging to an illusion. Because social interaction and dynamic as well as lore and legend is WHAT IS THEIR WORK. So if they do interact with people about their creative process, they're going to take that input away with them, whether unconsciously or as a real tipping point. And I do think that fandom has the right and the duty to use these interactions to let people in the production headquarter know - by way of constructive criticism and respectful debate - how storylines are not working for canonical or technical or narrative/pacing or personnell reasons - and demand the aforementioned professionalism and the deliverance of a well-rounded and thought out product. (And specifically for SPN I feel like the past couple of seasons have had the fans being the watchers on the wall knowing the material better and more intricately than the people professionally responsible for it. Which is not to say I don't want new perspectives, on the contrary, we need them to advance such a senior narrative, but if the foundation is so intricately woven and grounded in mythology, you can't just retcon canon right an left as if you haven't seen season 1-5 or something. You need to take the time to explain of how something comes to be different as it's now and make us believe it, and that's hard work.)

*Now I hear the deep breath already drawn and beg to wait for the:* HOWEVER.
The writers are, in my opinion, exactly right to say that in matters of creativity pertaining certain characters or storylines etc. that they don't negotiate with terrorists. It maybe a harsh comparison, but the fact is that heeding the expectations of one single individual or even a group is never going to work, because it will never make anyone happy and just start the blame game. So they have to and should divorce their creative process from these kinds of 'fandom wants blah'-submissions. And they are right to say that their social media outlets is definitely not the place to bring up these things as if running a successful narrative and show production were a grocery list for fandom (it's not, it's a grocery list for advertising network sponsors). And I feel the indelible entitlement that has risen from a few small pockets of fandom - of all colours and ships - (and which I can't bring up statistics for, but which feel to me like a largely younger part of fandom both in terms of individual maturity and entrance into the fannish verse as a whole) is part of an increasing delapidation of manners that is spreading in fandom, but through the advent of social media *very bad habits*. To me, it's much like the lacking respect I found in some young people who hold a separate conversation on their iPhone while talking to me in person and claim that if I was actually talking about something deep and important, I would have their complete attention. Which basically is a marginalization of personal and individual interaction and an insult to me at the same time. So to me, these emerging behavioural patterns are part of a paradigm shift in communication as well as the 'mainstreaming of fandom' as a phenomenon.

Otoh, they entered the social media circus, so they have to set the boundaries as well. Still, respect for their work and their vision (whether we agree with it or not) should come naturally and not as an after thought of a consumer nation/generation who's used to get what they want, when they want it, readymade in bite-sized chunks they don't have to work for anymore at all.

It's close to 1am after a 13h workday, I claim temporary insanity for this rant, which I'm closing now.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 12th, 2013 12:14 am (UTC)
Tired or no, this is an amazing, thoughtful response! (I'm sitting at one of my kids' schools, waiting for a holiday function so I'll digest this better later) but DAMN, you made some great points!

More to come...
(no subject) - mangacat201 on December 12th, 2013 06:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 12th, 2013 06:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ramblin_rosie on December 12th, 2013 12:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 12th, 2013 04:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ramblin_rosie on December 12th, 2013 04:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 12th, 2013 05:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ramblin_rosie on December 12th, 2013 05:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mangacat201 on December 12th, 2013 06:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karadin on December 12th, 2013 02:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
ghostyouknow27ghostyouknow27 on December 12th, 2013 01:43 am (UTC)
I haven't listened yet, but it sounds worthwhile!

My fan entitlement was broken as a youngin', when I was a passionate Sculder shipper (and got what I thought I'd wanted, exactly how I didn't want it), and then a passionate Spuffy shipper (where I got to see half of my OTP attempt to rape the other half, and with a commercial break in the middle of the scene to boot). Granted, we didn't have twitter back then, and I wasn't one for mailing things to the writers, so my entitlement mostly consisted of sitting around wanting the things I wanted.

In these conversations, I tend to suggest that, you know, we're looking at fans who haven't had their hope and joy squeezed out of them forever upon seeing their OTP made canon... because that what happens. You don't want your OTP made canon. Ever. Nope nope nope. I tend to suspect the kinds of fans currently upset about things like queerbaiting (as wrong-headed and offensive as those conversations, along with lists of stereotypes made in arguments about sexuality, can be) haven't figured out how this thing works yet. Some should know better by now, of course. I'm not really sure what to do about them.

I think SPN has a particular issue in that the show has always presented itself as accommodating the fans. You know, if you're going to kill all the ladies on request, why can't you kill Castiel, or write a Castiel/Dean sex scene, or give Sam a pet moose named Francis and have him ride that moose in the Derby to show all those horses that having antlers doesn't mean you can't succeed, or whatever else we decide to demand? There's little understanding of how TV works, how ratings works, their overall importance in the hierarchy of things writers need to consider, etc.

I think fan reaction can influence things -- that's how you end up with breakout characters -- but yelling at some dude on Twitter isn't going to course-correct a whole series and make it exactly what you want, nor should it. I've seen enough so-called fix-it fics to suggest sometimes fans shouldn't get to control every aspect of a show. :DDDDD

Edited at 2013-12-12 01:45 am (UTC)
balder12balder12 on December 12th, 2013 03:24 am (UTC)
Yes, I was a Mulder/Scully shipper back in the day, and man, oh, man, did I ever learn to be careful what you wish for. And especially with this show! I can't imagine these writers handling a gay romance in a way that didn't make me break out in hives.

The conversations about queerbaiting make me intensely uncomfortable. I'm gay, and I ship D/C, but it really feels like my sexuality is getting exploited by people who want to see their OTP kiss on screen. If you care about gay rights, there are better ways to spend your time than harassing the writers of an obscure genre show on Twitter. I'm not saying some of them aren't sincere, but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and Sam.

SPN's relationship to fans is interesting because it's been on the air so long. It started long before Tumblr, when the fourth wall was much more firmly in place than it is these days. And I think for that reason they felt comfortable joking with the audience about things like Wincest in "The Monster At the End of This Book." They assumed that (a) most people would get it was just a wink, and (b) they wouldn't have to deal with the fallout if anyone got riled up. Neither of those things is true anymore. I'd be interested to know if TPTB at a more recent show, like Teen Wolf, are handling fans differently, and in what ways.
(no subject) - ghostyouknow27 on December 12th, 2013 04:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - balder12 on December 13th, 2013 04:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ghostyouknow27 on December 15th, 2013 06:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 12th, 2013 04:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - balder12 on December 13th, 2013 04:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 13th, 2013 05:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kinkthatwinked on December 12th, 2013 07:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - balder12 on December 13th, 2013 04:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 13th, 2013 05:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 12th, 2013 04:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ghostyouknow27 on December 13th, 2013 05:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karadin on December 12th, 2013 02:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
The Kink That Winked: spn-assbuttkinkthatwinked on December 12th, 2013 02:09 am (UTC)
Well, that’s a relief. Don’t get me wrong, if there were a D/C hookup that happened organically, and it was clear in previous episodes that this was the arc all along, I’d be pretty thrilled, actually. But some last minute or final season retcon change to Dean’s sexual orientation or Castiel’s intentions toward Dean would feel like exactly that – a retcon, and such a transparent caving in to fans’ demands that I would lose all respect for this show and its production team.

I want the writers to tell the story of the Winchester brothers, not bring our fanfic to life. I’ll read fics that pair Dean with anyone/thing, but I don’t expect to see him kissing Castiel on my TV screen any more than I truly expected to see him making out with Benny in Purgatory. Taking that from fanfic to canon would be jarring, to say the least. Frankly, it would feel like the writers are forcing us to watch their attempt at fanfic (and bad fanfic at that, since I don’t think any of the show’s current writers could hold a candle to some of the truly awesome D/C fics out there).

I do understand why some D/C fans feel they’ve been teased and manipulated for years, with quotes and antics both on- and off-screen. I can see how some fans are convinced the show is purposely building up to something specific. I have some friends who say it’s time for the show to put up or shut up in that area. But I have other friends who say the show owes them absolutely nothing, any more than Wincest fans are owed the brothers falling into bed to fulfill a “promise” teased since the pilot episode. My view – I really don’t know. I do know the demands made by more extreme fans seem rude and embarrassing, not to mention a little scary. I personally wouldn’t mind if a D/C relationship had been written to evolve as naturally as their friendship and “Profound Bond” has. But to get it like this, at the behest of people who are doing their best to come off like a mob on the verge of rioting? No. Hold your ground, writers.

P.S.: If this comment is in any way an inappropriate response to your post, please let me know and I'll immediately delete it, no hard feelings. Thanks.

Edited at 2013-12-12 02:26 am (UTC)
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 12th, 2013 05:22 am (UTC)
It is thoroughly appropriate! And I solidly echo your sentiments.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a hetero married white woman on the far end of forty, with a gay brother. I've liked Castiel from the moment he made his entrance. I had not, however, picked up any actual homoerotic subtext between Dean and Cas until I'd stumbled into fandom and even then, I read mostly gen until relatively recently. Fandom pointed out the D/C thing to me. On my own? I'd never have seriously considered it. I have a mess of straight male friends and they joke around and interface just like Dean and Cas and Sam do. Maybe I'm just ollllld.

Now that the writers are aware of the discontent within a part of fandom, I feel like they're trying to do some damage control by keeping Cas strongly in the story but affirming both Dean's and Cas' definition as straight men. It's kinda clumsy, really.

I do wish Ben Edlund hadn't left. I do. *sigh*
(no subject) - karadin on December 12th, 2013 02:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kinkthatwinked on December 12th, 2013 04:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 13th, 2013 09:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Swedish for "Smith": SW princess & pilotcolls on December 12th, 2013 03:46 am (UTC)
It's a relief that twitter/tumblr doesn't have as much impact on writers as it feels like some days. I really get second hand embarrassment by some of the stuff I come across at times. Especially when the comments or notes have that demanding sense of entitlement in them. Ugh.

I do wish that more fans would realize that actors/writers/producers/whatever that are interacting with them on twitter are doing so as a means of promoting themselves/show/product and not "being friends" or that it's anything personal. Like conventions appearances, these things generate promotion and they get paid. It's a job and they're actors. That doesn't mean they're not nice people or aren't having fun - just that if they're any good at their chosen profession, we'd likely not be able to tell the difference.

Have you seen Orlando Jones? He's an actor on Sleepy Hollow and quite active on twitter and tumblr, encouraging all the ships and rebloging AO3 fanfic written about his character. It's rather hilarious.
/random, but-somewhat-related, ramble
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 12th, 2013 05:29 am (UTC)
Orlando Jones cracks my shit up. I've only seen Sleepy Hollow twice but he's my favorite character already. Sleepy Natural? Super Hollow? I WANT.

But seriously, I honestly believe the whole staff appreciates that their show has generated such a passionate fanbase, but as with any sizable group, some fans are more extreme and/or less polite than others. The Show staff is expected to act professionally (which they sometimes fail at) while fandom didn't seem to be held to such a standard, until recently. I do think it'll get itself ironed out, as the Show figures out what they can and cannot do with certain fans, and as fans learn their own boundaries too. *fingers crossed!*
(no subject) - monicawoe on December 12th, 2013 12:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karadin on December 12th, 2013 02:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - quickreaver on December 13th, 2013 09:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Reaperreapertownusa on December 13th, 2013 09:10 am (UTC)
New (to me) podcast - yay! So checking that out. As for fandom and their demands... Fandom, I love you, but you irk me. I've never heard anyone screaming about the show that I remotely agreed with so I'm very comforted in the fact that the writers are just doing their thing and ignoring the screamers.
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 13th, 2013 09:31 pm (UTC)
I'm getting a little less irked (and in some ways, a little more!) as I discover how TV shows get made. It is such an imprecise science! I really do like getting to throw an occasional tweet back and forth between the staff and myself, but I am in no way naive enough to think it will change the direction of the show. Best Show can do, in regards to social media, is try to take a general temperature of the vibe out there, but even that doesn't necessarily correspond to ratings.

I DO think you can balance quality with success in the television industry, so I hope SPN strives for that. S'all I can do! *fistbump*
ash48ash48 on December 13th, 2013 11:33 am (UTC)
Late to the party (made a note to come back when I had a chance though because it sounds interesting). I haven't listened to this (yet), but I am happy and somewhat relieved to hear that the writers don't listen to fans demands. It must be daunting to be confronted with the power of social media - twitter has made it possible to actually talk directly to the writers (actors etc) of a show, which is rather amazing actually. But THANK GOD they don't write to "please" us. I think we get nods (Monster at the End of This Book) HAD to be a nod to what fans were doing, but as long as they are not changing story lines because of "demands" that's a relief. I mean, sure, we complain about (rather topically), say Sam not being present this season and some want them to change that but I would still rather they write their stories, even if they don't match my own.

I will say that I had wondered if Cas being shown having sex with a woman (and later Dean with a woman), was in direct response to all the badging writers have received to make D/C canon (and all that whoha (sp?) at the cons about it). It really makes no sense that it would be because the show has never blatantly suggested that either Dean or Cas aren't into women - so it was just part of the story telling. It's heartening to hear that the ones who scream "this is what fandom wants" isn't listened to. Perhaps we wouldn't have such an active fandom if we didn't have keep fixing what they were doing…;D (though I know know a lot of what we do is in celebration too).


<33
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 13th, 2013 09:24 pm (UTC)
*shoves a drink in your hand* Never too late to a party!

You can never please fandom, so writing to please them is a HUGE, losing proposition. But that's not to say fan commentary is necessarily brushed off either, because I don't think it is completely. I think it's taken more as concrit. You look at the source, consider how you feel about the comment, and then file it away for either consideration or dismissal. The more seasoned and self-aware you are as a professional, the better you are at assessing those comments ... and that right there might be our problem!

Glass seems to get really defensive FAST. And goodness knows there's been a fair amount of rude leveled at him lately, so I almost don't blame him.

I agree with you; I think the recent spate of heavy-handed "Oh look how hetero Dean and Cas are" storylines are indeed in direct response to the fans who want D/C to become canon and have requested that the Show either put up or shut up. So instead of "shutting up", the Show is yelling in the opposite direction. Smooth. I want Dean, (hell, both the bros) to have a salient, meaningful relationship with Cas! I've just never seen it as romantic, though. Romance doesn't go well on SPN, regardless of orientation. Whatcha gonna do.

Perhaps we wouldn't have such an active fandom if we didn't have keep fixing what they were doing… I dunno, maybe? Not all broken shows generate such a passionate fancom, though. I think SPN, from its conception, was lightning in a bottle. The bits and pieces somehow gelled into something much more potent and that's why, despite its difficulties, it's still alive and kicking today! And I'll be in it 'til the end. :D
(no subject) - ash48 on December 14th, 2013 12:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
thursdaysistersthursdaysisters on December 13th, 2013 06:51 pm (UTC)
The indefatigable Mrs. Griffinquickreaver on December 13th, 2013 08:50 pm (UTC)
Ha! I'll produce that puppy.

Re. the quote, ROCK ON. But we should always remember 'truth' is in the eye of the beholder. Our own perceptions are our realities. It would be awesome if we could all discuss our truths w/o defensiveness or insult, yeah? Ah, my fantasyland!
(no subject) - thursdaysisters on December 13th, 2013 09:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)